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AidanLunn
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Recently I've been going through DVD Volume One of Emmerdale Farm (don't snigger :qq1 ) (26 episodes from 1972-73 - another amazing release job from Network DVD), and I noticed the rather prominent Sugden family TV, which is looking increasingly better-looking and more appealing to get in my collection by the minute.

What is the TV? I'm thinking a "Pilot", (pre-Thorn) "Ferguson", "DER" or "RGD" or something similar.

The character in the photo is Annie Sugden.

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Topic starter Posted : 05/01/2015 2:16 am
Marc
 Marc
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Hi,

That looks like a Bush TV84 with the compressed cardboard/fibreboard cabinet to me, No doubt Marion will be along to put us straight as she has one :aaq

Marc.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 2:25 am
Cathovisor
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According to the manual for the 83/85, it is "... plywood, bonded to fibre foundation board and covered with PVC laminate". I quote the TV83/TV85 manual because the TV84/TV86 manual says the TV84 is a sapele veneered console!

Anyhow, TV83 or TV84. First *full-size* Bush to use Bush Button tuning - the first set to use push-button tuning was the transportable TV80.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 2:39 am
Marc
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According to the manual for the 83/85, it is "... plywood, bonded to fibre foundation board and covered with PVC laminate". I quote the TV83/TV85 manual because the TV84/TV86 manual says the TV84 is a sapele veneered console!

Anyhow, TV83 or TV84.

Hi Catho,

There always seems to be confusion around the TV84 as to what style or type it is, I wonder why :aaq

Marc.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 2:47 am
Cathovisor
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The manual does not help! Also, the manuals show both the TV84/TV86 and TV83/TV85 as having flywheel sync... :aab

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Posted : 05/01/2015 2:56 am
Terry
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Definitely a Bush TV83.

Bush model numbers give a guide here: in the same way that the 2 on the end of TV22, TV32 and TV62 indicated a bakelite cabinet, model numbers ending in 3 seem to indicate any other variety of non-wood cabinet.

Thus the TV83 had a fibreboard cabinet whilst the later TV103 had a plastic cabinet.

Of course, you can't have two '3's in the same year, so the 'transportable' TV80 with a fibreboard cabinet is an exception - but there were never any other model numbers ending in 0 to conflict!

Here's a picture of a TV85 for comparison - wooden cabinet, obviously, bur the distinctive row of rectangular buttons is the same as in the original shot at the top of this thread.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 12:11 pm
Cathovisor
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Definitely a Bush TV83.

Bush model numbers give a guide here: in the same way that the 2 on the end of TV22, TV32 and TV62 indicated a bakelite cabinet, model numbers ending in 3 seem to indicate any other variety of non-wood cabinet.

I think it's a pecking order thing, Terry; the TV84 also has a vinyl covering, whilst the 85 and 86 have sapele cabinets. The 84 and 85 were also the same price.

There is also a fabric-covered set called the TV94 of very similar appearance, but I don't think it's that as the TV94 is a 110 degree set, so would be more shallow.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 12:37 pm
Terry
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Only the original Bush Button sets (the TV8x series) had rectangular buttons. All later sets had round buttons, so it couldn't have been a TV9x series set.

I don't ever recall seeing a TV84 ...

From memory, model numbers ending in 6 were fringe area sets and those ending in 7 had FM radio ...

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Posted : 05/01/2015 1:51 pm
Cathovisor
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Only the original Bush Button sets (the TV8x series) had rectangular buttons. All later sets had round buttons, so it couldn't have been a TV9x series set.

Ah, okay.

From memory, model numbers ending in 6 were fringe area sets and those ending in 7 had FM radio ...

No, where does that leave things like the T57 console? There's no logic to these numbers Terry, other than pecking order IMO. Of similar vintage to the example above, the TV53 and TV56 were both in walnut cabinets but the 53 had a 14" tube, the 56 a 17" tube.

The 1958/59 model year gave us:

TV80, 14" transportable.
TV83, vinyl-covered "standard" model.
TV84, vinyl-covered "fringe" model.
TV85, sapele-veneered "standard model"
TV86, sapele-veneered "fringe model"
T85c, "standard" consolette
T86c, "fringe" consolette.

To add to the confusion, I have a mod. sheet to deal with oscillator drift in the tuners that also covers two models I have no info on - the TV81R and the TV82R... :aab

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Posted : 05/01/2015 4:42 pm
Terry
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From memory, model numbers ending in 6 were fringe area sets and those ending in 7 had FM radio ...

No, where does that leave things like the T57 console? There's no logic to these numbers Terry, other than pecking order IMO. Of similar vintage to the example above, the TV53 and TV56 were both in walnut cabinets but the 53 had a 14" tube, the 56 a 17" tube.

There was inevitably a far bit of recycling of numbers over the years and I must admit that I should have made it plain that my comments apply from TV7x series onwards.

Before that, I think 4 always referred to a 12" set, these being superseded by the 3s (14") and 7s (17") then 5s (17") and 8s (21").

With the demise of the 14" & 21" tubes, the 3 and 7 became redundant and, along with the remaining unused numbers were allocated to variants on the main two TV sizes such as fringe sets and FM coverage. This basically remained the pattern up to the TV135x series, then 1 put in an appearance with the TV141.

The TV81R and the TV82R would have been produced solely for the rental market. I recall the TV125R, the only rental variant I ever saw - and that was identical to the standard TV125 except for a cheaper cabinet, I think.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 5:03 pm
neil1974
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If I remember right I used to have a TV86? and I now have a TV86/7 ? consolette but cant confirm as it's behind other things :bba .

Cheers
Neil.

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Posted : 05/01/2015 5:17 pm
Katie Bush
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Hi all,

I'm inclined to go for TV84.. In any event, and despite the blurry image, the cabinet appears dull and does not pick up any reflections from the surrounding objects.. A polished wood finish would show reflections from objects and light sources, plus, the vinyl covered cabinets do actually appear lighter in colour that the wood finished ones.

As I know from my own TV84 cabinet, even after cleaning and an application of polish, the vinyl does not take a shine, and the fake leather texture merely diffuses any light that falls upon it - just like the one in the screen shot.

I can remember seeing that telly perched in its precarious position, and often used to wonder how long before it would be wiped out by someone walking past and catching that overhanging corner.

I wonder where it ended up..... :aaq

Marion

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Posted : 06/01/2015 12:04 am
AidanLunn
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Hi all,

I can remember seeing that telly perched in its precarious position, and often used to wonder how long before it would be wiped out by someone walking past and catching that overhanging corner.

I wonder where it ended up..... :aaq

Marion

Probably a skip round the back of Yorkshire TV. :aab

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Topic starter Posted : 06/01/2015 8:06 pm
Terry
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... I'm inclined to go for TV84 ...

It could just as easily be a TV83 - the only one of the TV83/TV84 pair that I ever saw.

Of course, without a detailed view of the back of the TV showing the model number, it is pure conjecture as to which it was!

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Posted : 07/01/2015 12:14 am
Cathovisor
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Shall we say "It's the vinyl-covered 17" set with the 90 degree tube"?!

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Posted : 07/01/2015 1:17 am
Katie Bush
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Just as an aside to all this......

Take a look at the "Bush Buttons" and notice that the button at the extreme left appears to be pressed in.... Hmm, that's an "ITA" marked button - surely, not just a coincidence?

Marion

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Posted : 07/01/2015 3:17 pm
Terry
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Helen always complains when I can see something clearly with my 'plastic' eyes (replacement lenses following cataract operations) but even I can't match Marion's eye sight!

The TV85 picture I posted was the clearest and showed that no buttons had been pressed. If anyone - Marion included! - can expand part of this picture to demonstrate the BBC an ITA labels on the keys, I'd like to see them!

The original picture does suggest that button one is depressed but the level of detail is such that it is only a guess.

.... Hmm, that's an "ITA" marked button - surely ...

First, you can't interchange the buttons on a TV8x set because the width of the rectangular buttons meant that they were all individually offset from the centre.

Second, the BBC and ITA legends were transfers - and I doubt anybody has any of those!

Third, you can only read the legends by looking down on the buttons and,

Finally, the order of the buttons was BBC. BBC, ITA, ITA.

Would you care to elaborate a little more, Marion? Or am I missing something obvious here?

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Posted : 08/01/2015 12:54 pm
Katie Bush
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Terry,

You have indeed missed something very obvious!

I do not need to see the legends, to know which buttons are which.. As you can see from the picture, there is a very good indication that the left most button is depressed - it appears pressed in, and showing effectively, a notch below.. The remaining three buttons appear level with each other.. Of course, a club-fisted prop shifter at YTV may have bent the 'push-rod' internally, but visually, that button is the only one showing evidence of being pushed in.

Now the obvious bit....

I have one TV4 and two TV85 models, all of which have their buttons arranged as [ITA]-[ITA]-[BBC]-[BBC].

As you say, the buttons are not transposable - Therefore, if this is indeed a TV84, or TV85, the two left buttons are and always will be band iii, and the two right buttons are and always will be band i.

It does not need "The Brain Of Britain" to figure out that the legends are irrelevant.. You can move, or even remove, the label, but the jar always contains the same flavour of jam..

Therefore, assuming TV84 or 85, and if a left hand button is depressed (as appears to be the case) then it must be [ITA] - It cannot be anything else - quod erat demonstrandum!

Marion

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Posted : 08/01/2015 11:22 pm
AidanLunn
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Of course this TV, along with a Pye CO6/501 converter and a 405-625 converter (for conversion of 405 material from other ITV companies to 625 for their transmission control desk to deal with then back to 405 for output to Emley Moor) would have probably been the only 405-line equipment at Yorkshire TV ever. As the company was launched in July 1968, all of its recording and transmission equipment was 625 lines from day one. Brand spanking new colour Marconi MkVIIs and EMI 2001s.

And whilst all regions made the switch to 625, including the ones that wouldn't be colour for a few years to come, their next-door neighbours, Granada, really dragged their feet into going 625. Even after "S night" (8th/9th September 1969) on when the entire ITV distribution system between companies and out to transmitters switched to 625, and several months after all other regions were making all output in 625, Granada were still making much of their stuff in 405 until about the middle of October 1969. The very last ITV programme recorded in 405-lines was one of theirs, the first series of sitcom "The Dustbinmen", broadcast October/early November 1969, IIRC, using Granada's ageing Marconi MKIII cameras. As the BBC had switched to making all of their output 625 by January 1968, "Dustbinmen" was also possibly *the* last 405-line programme ever made.

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Topic starter Posted : 09/01/2015 1:53 am
Terry
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I do not need to see the legends, to know which buttons are which.. As you can see from the picture, there is a very good indication that the left most button is depressed - it appears pressed in, and showing effectively, a notch below..

I did say "The original picture does suggest that button one is depressed ..." but ...

I have one TV4 and two TV85 models, all of which have their buttons arranged as [ITA]-[ITA]-[BBC]-[BBC].

... this is where we differ.

I must have encountered hundreds of TV85s in my time (plus innumerable TV9x, TV10x and TV11x models using the same mechanical arrangement, albeit with round buttons) and, without exception, in a horizontal layout the order (left - right) was BBC-BBC-ITA-ITA!

Your examples of these sets must be very rare examples - it would be very interesting to see how the mechanics were persuaded to work backwards - you cant just turn the tuner over, the valves would poke out of the bottom!

You have indeed missed something very obvious!

Obvious to you but not to me, I'm afraid!

However, a trawl on the net finds evidence that seems to back you up, so perhaps it's just me getting a bit senile ...

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Posted : 09/01/2015 12:39 pm
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