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Forum 141

Identify the TV

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Till Eulenspiegel
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The TV84 was the poverty model, made for penny pinching rental firms. Some sets may have the suffix R after the model type number.
The Bush TV to look out for is the TV77, the one with FM radio. No penny pinching with this one, separate tuners for TV and radio. PCC85 double triode on the FM tuner.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 1:15 am
Cathovisor
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The TV84 was the poverty model, made for penny pinching rental firms. Some sets may have the suffix R after the model type number.

Not quite: the TV84 was the fringe model, which had two extra valves in the receiver unit - one vision IF amp, one sound IF amp. The TV84 cost exactly the same as the sapele-veneered TV85, which had the lower-spec receiver unit and in vinyl-covered guise was called a TV83. One of my manual supplements refers to a TV81R and a TV82R, of which I have no manuals for.

The Bush TV to look out for is the TV77, the one with FM radio. No penny pinching with this one, separate tuners for TV and radio. PCC85 double triode on the FM tuner.

Having decided to rationalise my televisual Shrubbery, that's the one I decided to keep (Marion got the TV85) - a very nice set by the look of it. Just hope the tube's good.

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 1:44 am
Terrykc
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The TV84 was the poverty model, made for penny pinching rental firms. Some sets may have the suffix R after the model type number.

The company I worked for didn't do rental. which is why I never saw one!

The Bush TV to look out for is the TV77, the one with FM radio. No penny pinching with this one, separate tuners for TV and radio. PCC85 double triode on the FM tuner.

I don't recall seeing a TV87 but I'm sure I encountered the occasional TV97 which, presumably, had a similar arrangement: - I certainly remember the separate VHF/FM tuner and the drive cord which drove a pointer along a slot above the (by now round) Bush Buttons ...

When all else fails, read the instructions

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 1:49 am
Cathovisor
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I don't recall seeing a TV87 but I'm sure I encountered the occasional TV97 which, presumably, had a similar arrangement: - I certainly remember the separate VHF/FM tuner and the drive cord which drove a pointer along a slot above the (by now round) Bush Buttons ...

A pointer? Luxury! No such joy with the TV77...

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 1:52 am
Till Eulenspiegel
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I'm sure there was a specific model made for the rental companies. Perhaps it was the TV81? The 1959/60 Radio and Television book describes models TV83, TV85 and T85C. All these sets have flywheel line sync and have the service area IF amplifier type A119, the same unit fitted in the TV75. The TV75 had direct line sync. I'm certain all "80" series receiver except the TV80 14" portable had flywheel sync. The 1959/60 book informs us that models TV84, TV86 and T86C are fringe area models and employ the type A103 IF amplifier which was used in the TV76 fringe model. Models TV83 and TV84 might well be the model with the fibre board cabinet.
No TV87 with FM radio, it would appear that the TV77 remained production alongside the 80 series. Renamed as TV77A.
The TV97 had FM radio but with only one tuner unit. The familiar four button tuner was modified to accept extra switches to introduce Band 2 coils.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 2:36 am
Cathovisor
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I'm sure there was a specific model made for the rental companies. Perhaps it was the TV81?

Pretty sure that'll be the TV81R and TV82R I alluded to earlier - and it wouldn't surprise me if they too were a choice of wood or vinyl-covered cabinets.

I'm certain all "80" series receiver except the TV80 14" portable had flywheel sync.

Studying the manuals, that seems to be the case.

Models TV83 and TV84 might well be the model with the fibre board cabinet.

They are. See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10119#p105768

No TV87 with FM radio, it would appear that the TV77 remained production alongside the 80 series. Renamed as TV77A.

According to the manuals I have for the TV77/TV77A, again this fibre/vinyl cabinet appears as the cabinet for the TV77A, the TV77 being "...walnut with brass trim"

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 10:57 am
Terrykc
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... the drive cord which drove a pointer along a slot ...

A pointer? Luxury! No such joy with the TV77...

Thinking about it, it might just have bead threaded on the drive cord - certainly somebody used a bead ...

As you say, no pointer on a TV77, nor any other set that used a position on a rotary TV tuner for FM except, if my memory serves me correctly (this time!) for Ekco sets which had L-T-H engraved on the fine tuning knob ...

When all else fails, read the instructions

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 12:29 pm
Cathovisor
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... the drive cord which drove a pointer along a slot ...

A pointer? Luxury! No such joy with the TV77...

Thinking about it, it might just have bead threaded on the drive cord - certainly somebody used a bead ...

As you say, no pointer on a TV77, nor any other set that used a position on a rotary TV tuner for FM except, if my memory serves me correctly (this time!) for Ekco sets which had L-T-H engraved on the fine tuning knob ...

Studying the pretty pictures in the TV77 manual, where one would normally expect to find the TV fine tuning ring there was one marked LIGHT - THIRD - HOME, and AIUI the intention was that this was adjusted at the owner's premises to cover the required VHF tuning range. As a result, this set had a triple concentric knob on the right-hand side: inner, TV fine tuner: centre, TV channel selector: outer, FM tuner.

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 2:49 pm
Till Eulenspiegel
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I often wondered if those so called rental models were any cheaper to produce than the usual wood cabinet versions.
Getting back to that Ultra U2201 TV which was produced by Thorn C E in response to the protests from the independent dealers over that Logic TV the company supplied to the Dixons Currys group.
The Ultra set was supplied to the dealers at lower price than the equivalent Ferguson model, 22D1. In fact it was not any cheaper to make than the Ferguson.
Slightly upmarket Bush must have considered the TV rental firms were worth supply considering the rather down market image TV rental had in the late fifties.
Way in 1972 the sales representative from Rank-Bush-Murphy tried to convince me that the Bush-Arena TV supplied to Comet was a much cheaper version of the Murphy V2023. Utter nonsense of course.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 4:24 pm
Katie Bush
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Okay folks,

Here's a fly in the ointment!

My TV84 (and I only have the one) is definitely not flywheel sync... The discriminator diodes and associated components simply do not exist on that chassis (A176) with no evidence that they ever did, but it does have the A103 receiver 'deck'.

The cabinet is not fibre board, but ultra thin ply with the fake leather pattern vinyl covering.

Now, as we all know, it's quite possible to hybridise (cobble together) any of the major sections to produce a totally non-spec set, so we can take nothing for granted on a set that is approaching sixty years old.

The missing flywheel diodes and associated components are somewhat harder to account for since there is no evidence that they ever existed, screw holes for tags and transformer are clean and unmarked, suggesting nothing has ever been mounted there.

Marion

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 7:45 pm
Cathovisor
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Okay folks,

Here's a fly in the ointment!

My TV84 (and I only have the one) is definitely not flywheel sync... The discriminator diodes and associated components simply do not exist on that chassis (A176) with no evidence that they ever did, but it does have the A103 receiver 'deck'.

Now, I've noticed this in the past and it has caused a lot of head-scratching to try and identify your set.

The cabinet is not fibre board, but ultra thin ply with the fake leather pattern vinyl covering.

That's correct - it's not fibre-board like the "cardboard cutout" Murphys (V230/V350 IIRC), more likely what's known as "constructional veneer", like American "cathedral" sets often used.

Sets do get backs swapped and the like in busy workshops, especially near the ends of their lives. Now, sadly I have no manuals for the TV81R and TV82R which as David and Terry have alluded to, may well be rental models and as such their manuals may only have been supplied to either the rental chains or dealers actively engaged in renting sets.

Here's a thought. You're already offering an alternative, 'modern' style of cabinet at a slightly lower cost in the shape of the TV83/TV84, Bakelite now being passé. So if you wanted to make something even cheaper, what could you do? Well, I'd say taking out that expensive flywheel sync. circuit would be a good start...

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 9:17 pm
Till Eulenspiegel
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Hi Marion,
According to the information in the 1958/59 servicing book the sync separator valve V101A in the direct sync sets is the pentode section of a PCF80, the triode section functions as the line oscillator. An ECC83 is the frame sync pulse shaper and part frame oscillator. PCL82 frame part oscillator and output.
The flywheel sync sets employ an ECC83 as the sync separator and part frame oscillator. PCL82 as part frame osc and output.
An ECC82 is the line oscillator.
I do remember some flywheel sync sets were converted to direct sync, usually by someone who couldn't fix the set. Easy enough to do, just remove the line sync phase splitter transformer and the sync diodes. Insert a resistor into the anode circuit of the sync separator and supply direct line sync into the grid of one of the line oscillator triodes.
Interesting to note that the 21" model TV79 employed a slightly different chassis. Different metalwork and a PL36 instead of the PL81 used in 17" models.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 9:31 pm
Katie Bush
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Now then...

I'm wondering what the manuals can tell us about the "A176 Main Deck" (Main Chassis) in this set? If I do indeed have a TV8-summat-or-other with a TV84 back cover, then wouldn't the chassis type number identify what this set should be?

Fortunately, the chassis type number is a clearly identified by the plastic roundel which is screwed to the chassis, but, these can also be tampered with (swapped from one to another) to mislead us into thinking a chassis is something other than it really is.. However, these chassis also have a very large red or green self adhesive label to identify the type number.. On my 'TV84' the label is green, and clearly reads "176" so I think it is very unlikely that anyone would have swapped identities with another chassis - The self adhesive label would be well nigh impossible to remove without destroying it, then to do that twice, plus reattaching a label without a trace..... Extremely unlikely, and therefore I think we can assume the chassis is what it claims to be.

As an aside to this, this is also the same chassis with the unfathomable power supply section.. This was the last set I debagged before my back fully let go on me, and I didn't get back to advance it's restoration.. As you may recall, there were some doubts about the circuit layout, and w/w resistor values.

So-o-o.... Just exactly which set did use the A176 main chassis?

Marion

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 10:49 pm
Cathovisor
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So-o-o.... Just exactly which set did use the A176 main chassis?

That's the problem. I've looked through my manuals and so far, I can't find an A176 'main deck'. A159, A160 - yes. These are the TV84/TV85 'main decks'.

Main chassis A143 is the TV77/A.
Main chassis A181 is for the TV99/T99c.
Main chassis A203/4/15/21 belong in the TV94 - TV96 sets.
No indication in the TV76/TV79 manuals.

After this we leave the barrel-shaped sets behind...

(I think tomorrow I shall be swapping over the motherboard in my laptop, but first I shall make sure the CPU fan bearing is lubricated. This one is driving me nuts as it sounds like a number of very angry wasps in a bottle being taunted by a jam jar outside)

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 11:11 pm
Katie Bush
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So-o-o.... Just exactly which set did use the A176 main chassis?

That's the problem. I've looked through my manuals and so far, I can't find an A176 'main deck'. A159, A160 - yes. These are the TV84/TV85 'main decks'.

Hmm... Export model? I can't really see it myself.

That said though, it did come from somewhere over near Liverpool, and it has been suggested that it may have been brought across from Ireland, but would a special production chassis have been warranted, for the Irish market?

Marion

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 11:26 pm
Katie Bush
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(I think tomorrow I shall be swapping over the motherboard in my laptop, but first I shall make sure the CPU fan bearing is lubricated. This one is driving me nuts as it sounds like a number of very angry wasps in a bottle being taunted by a jam jar outside)

Going completely off topic....

Go then, identify the artist, and the song, from the following line...

..............."Makin' a noise like an angry awnet.. Must o'been deaf, Or 'e never could o' bawn it."................

Think, 1960's.

Marion :qq1

 
Posted : 11/01/2015 11:38 pm
Cathovisor
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So-o-o.... Just exactly which set did use the A176 main chassis?

That's the problem. I've looked through my manuals and so far, I can't find an A176 'main deck'. A159, A160 - yes. These are the TV84/TV85 'main decks'.

Hmm... Export model? I can't really see it myself.

That said though, it did come from somewhere over near Liverpool, and it has been suggested that it may have been brought across from Ireland, but would a special production chassis have been warranted, for the Irish market?

Marion

Probably won't be an export model as it'd be 625, although I do - or at least did - have some manuals for both sets for "CCIR systems" and some later Irish Bush sets- the "Valiant" range. Irish however is not as implausible as you might think. Bush did have manufacturing capacity in Dublin (to avoid import duties), and certainly the radio sets fell into three categories:

  • Sets identical to the British market;[/*:m:ef2hyn9n]
  • Sets that were tweaked export models (usually losing a short wave band and getting long wave)[/*:m:ef2hyn9n]
  • Sets unique to the Irish market.[/*:m:ef2hyn9n][/list:u:ef2hyn9n]
  • Now, this might sound daft but the green chassis label could be a clue, in much the same way that some post-war Irish Pye sets had the roundel on the dial in green rather than the red of the rest of the world.

     
Posted : 12/01/2015 12:21 am
Katie Bush
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Hi Mike,

Now that is interesting, and as yet I haven't had a peep out of this set, so I can't say if it would be 405 or 625 lines.. Could I assume 625 lines is a possibility with this chassis? If so, it could be interesting to restore, but that still leaves the question "What is it?" Presumably not an Irish TV84 - or could it be?

Marion

 
Posted : 12/01/2015 12:35 am
Cathovisor
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Hi Mike,

Now that is interesting, and as yet I haven't had a peep out of this set, so I can't say if it would be 405 or 625 lines.. Could I assume 625 lines is a possibility with this chassis? If so, it could be interesting to restore, but that still leaves the question "What is it?" Presumably not an Irish TV84 - or could it be?

Marion

Assume nothing... but earlier, David suggested that the 1958-59 R&TS has a circuit showing a direct sync. chassis. Comparing the line oscillator circuit in that with yours will give the game away.

 
Posted : 12/01/2015 1:15 am
Till Eulenspiegel
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The 1959/60 servicing book does indeed confirm that the main deck of the TV77 is the type A143. As for the direct line sync models TV83,TV85 and T85C, the main deck is designated as A159. We are informed that this main deck is except for a few component value changes the same as the TV75. It is possible that the main deck of the TV75 has a different type number.
The book gives no indication what the main deck type number is for the flywheel sync models TV84 and TV86.

Hi Marion,
What valve types are employed in your TV84 main deck? Is the line oscillator the same as the TV75 or is it a multivibrator an ECC82?.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 12/01/2015 1:20 am
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