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valve TVs - do they increase your leccy bill substantially?

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AidanLunn
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Hello all

I ask this as I like to be economical with my bills and like to reduce waste as much as possible. I know for certain that flat panel sets are much more economical than CRTs. But what I'm asking is does regular use of a valve TV set increase bills by more than a marginal amount?

Did anyone see any increase in their bills once they had progressed to collecting valve TV sets? If so, by how much?

The answer is probably staring me in the face, but a Google search yielded nothing related to the subject.

I ask because I intend to use my recently completed Sobell T192 (write-up to come soon) and the nearly-finished Murphy V310 I recently bought as dining room and bedroom sets respectively in the annual kicked-out-of-the-workshop time (what you'd know as Christmas time). These would be the only two TVs I'd use, I never use the Samsung or LG flat panel monstrosities in the living room and kitchen.

Christmas time - that time when my workshop is invaded by the stuff in the dining room, because of said room having Christmas decorations and being used for Christmas dinner.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 2:40 am
Valvebloke
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When all else (Google) fails then you have to do the sums Aidan. What does a valve telly consume when it's on ? Let's say 200W (I'm happy to be corrected on this). Let's say you have just one of them on for, say, 20 hours a week. That's an energy consumption of 4kWh per week. Assuming your electricity costs 15p per kWh then your valve TV would add 60p/week to the bill, or £7.80 quarterly. Whether you think that's a 'substantial' amount or not is a matter of opinion.

If you wanted to do a more thorough analysis then you might look at offsetting the TV electricity cost against a) the room's heating cost, since all of that 200W ends up as warmth which, in the winter at least, you would otherwise have had to have paid for some other way, and b) the cost of energy for whatever you would have been doing if you weren't parked in front of the valve TV. That would make your situation look better, obviously.

VB

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Posted : 19/11/2014 10:02 am
sideband
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Yes indeed. Look on the back of said TV's and it should state the power in watts. I would think that most B/W sets are less than 200W (probably nearer 75 - 100W) so when you relate that to cost per kWh you'll probably find it's considerably less.

It'll cost you much more to run an electric fire or cook the Christmas turkey than to run a vintage telly for a few hours.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 10:28 am
Cathovisor
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I ask this as I like to be economical with my bills and like to reduce waste as much as possible. I know for certain that flat panel sets are much more economical than CRTs. But what I'm asking is does regular use of a valve TV set increase bills by more than a marginal amount?

I think the answer is blatantly obvious, surely? It's yes - about the only time the opposite was true was with some plasma sets, which used as much as 400W - more than a large hybrid colour TV. An easy way to determine this is to compare what you might normally watch with your chosen TV (plus standards converter if necessary) powered via a plug-in power meter such as this.

If you're that frugal and concerned about the operating costs of valve vs. solid-state equipment, I would say you're in the wrong hobby.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 10:29 am
Cathovisor
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It'll cost you much more to run an electric fire or cook the Christmas turkey than to run a vintage telly for a few hours.

And yet I've seen people saying they want to replace the fireglow bulbs in old electric fires with something modern as they're 'wasteful'... :cch (and then wonder why the flame effect doesn't work) - so: 40 - 60W against the potential 3kW of the fire...

Forum 142

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 10:39 am
crustytv
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I don't really consider it an issue either, its not as though my old sets will be running like they were back in the day 6+ hours a day x7x365, a few hours here and there at the most. Occasionally half a dozen on at once for demo's etc.

By the way my G6 consumes 400W, gets right toasty in the workshop at the moment, especially as that's got a storage heater too. So my advice is buy a G6, turn your central heating off and you'll be quids in :bba

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Posted : 19/11/2014 10:45 am
Anonymous
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Some of those old B&O TVs had a metal grill across the back that was too hot to touch..

Customers geraniums would wilt in hours.. :qq1

Ultimately it comes off the CH bill.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 11:06 am
Terrykc
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... By the way my G6 consumes 400W ...

Early valved colour sets were a bit on the greedy side! That probably didn't concern their owners, though, as the typical cost of a colour set in 1967 equates to around £5,200 today, so early adopters had to be quite affluent!

I would guess the sets that Aidan is referring to would have a typical consumption of 140 - 180W. It should be easy to find out as it is usually on the back somewhere or occasionally, as with Philips, on the Serial No. label ...

When all else fails, read the instructions

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 11:11 am
Duke Nukem
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In my case it certainly reduced power usage, not that I thought about it at the time. For over a year, following the demise of my modern c*l**r set, I used a Pye 48 (http://www.thevalvepage.com/tv/pye/48/48.htm) as the main set, for maybe 18 months. Thing is, whereas the c*l**r set would be left on in the background whilst I did other things, the proper telly only got switched on when I specifically wanted to sit and watch something - which turned out to be just 1.5 hrs per week ! So, definately a power saving.

What I'd add though is that some programmes just don't work in B&W - or maybe it was down to the set - but anyhow, I remember watching the film Saving Private Ryan, agreat film but just didn't work on that set.

TTFN,
Jon

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 11:45 am
AidanLunn
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I did have a gut feeling they would have more than a marginal effect. I ask because I don't like seeing wasted money, in no way would I describe using a valve 405 set as wasting money, I was just enquiring. I do use it as a main set, but usually not more than the 4 or 5 hours daily (there may be skewed figures with this, I am currently at home waiting for an operation on a hernia that makes it difficult to walk. So as one technique to stave off boredom, the TV is on much more frequently than usual, playing some of the vast collection of archive programmes I've acquired). As a general rule of thumb, I always use the last set I've restored as a main set until the next one has been finished). Indeed, I might consider converting to a capacitive dropper, possibly a simple one that can be swapped over as easily as the resistive dropper, should I want to show off the TV in its' originality I'd put the resistive dropper back in. I still haven't decided if I want to go ahead with that though.

As I said in my opening post, it'll be used in either my bedroom or dining room (where my PC desk is, too), it most certainly won't be used in the kitchen!

I'm just tight, I guess, a trait I get from my dad. He's tight with money and collects and restores vintage (mostly valve) amplifiers and hifi systems.

I feel I should add my current main TV, the Sobell, doesn't detail its consumption anywhere.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 1:18 pm
Terrykc
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... I feel I should add my current main TV, the Sobell, doesn't detail its consumption anywhere ...

The service information gives the total HT current as 265mA. Adding 300mA for the heater chain gives a grand total of 565mA.

So, consumption varies from 113W for 200V input to 136W at 240V.

When all else fails, read the instructions

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 3:22 pm
Till Eulenspiegel
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That's right, the older LCD TVs are as far as power consumption is concerned far worse than the last of the CRT sets. A late production CRT set consumed about 90 watts. A five year old LCD consumes about 160 watts. I've noticed the latest plasma sets are rated at 200 watts, that's a lot better than the early ones which were real room warmers at 500watts!
The latest LED backlight LCD TVs are much better, a 32" set consumes about 35watts, max 50watts.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 4:19 pm
crustytv
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My 7 year old 50" plasma uses 480W which is 80W more than my 47 year old 21valve G6.. go figure!

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Posted : 19/11/2014 4:25 pm
mark pirate
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My 7 year old 50" plasma uses 480W which is 80W more than my 47 year old 21valve G6.. go figure!

Plasma sets, like CRT sets quote the MAXIMUM power rating, it does vary with brightness levels etc.
My 42" Samsung plasma has 3 different 'power save' modes, this affects brightness mainly. But in maximum 'eco' mode, the power consumption is almost half what it is with 'eco' mode disabled!

As a matter of interest, my 6 year old Bush 27" lcd set uses 125w, which is less than my 9" Pye D18T!

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 6:45 pm
Niall
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To be fair, a 50" CRT set would probably use quite a bit of juice! There is an irreducible minimum based on the amount of light energy emitted per unit area, however efficient the driving electronics are.

The overall picture is also interesting. Is the total energy used more or less for modern "throwaway" sets which only last a few years, or the older stuff which lasted longer but at the cost of needing a complete infrastructure of workshops, engineers, service vans, spares supply chain etc.?

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 7:40 pm
Alastair
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Fully transistorised 1980's Hitachi CTP 200, = 98W power-cons.
Fairly recent (!) 22" colour CRT set, maybe as low as 60W

Philips G6 22" 1969 colour set, 400W
Bush TV 62 14" 1956 B/W 180W

Panasonic TH-42PX70B 42" 2008 Plasma set, 500W
Samsung 32A467 LCD 32" set, 180W

So--Looking at the above, It ALL depends on exactly WHAT sets you're looking at!
I'll add that watching the Bush TV62 is FAR more fun to me than the equivalent Samsung 32" in power consumption!

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 6:54 pm
Terrykc
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... It ALL depends on exactly WHAT sets you're looking at! ...

Not so much which sets as the technology they used.

Monochrome or Colour?

CRT size?

Valve, hybrid or solid state?

Discrete of Integrated Circuit? (And degree of integration)

There will still be differences within each sector but they are unlikely to amount to much ...

This is a Vintage forum, so I'll ignore more recent technologies ...

When all else fails, read the instructions

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 9:44 pm
Till Eulenspiegel
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In the mid 1960s certain TV manufactures did begin to take heat dissipation more seriously. The Thorn 900 series was one of the first with it's reduced valve count and a mains transformer to supply the valve heaters. Another solution was to introduce a silicon diode into the heater chain and supply the valves with only half the mains waveform. When the polarity of the heater diode was set to supply the negative half waves then this would help to balance out mains input. Did the mains input waveform symmetry concern the set designers in those days, who knows?
Philips took the view that if you cannot reduce the power consumption, then a sensible solution was to make sure that the heat sensitive parts were kept well away from the printed board. Drop-off resistors and heat fuses were first seen in the 19TG155 series and carried forward in the Style 70 sets. It was the introduction BEAB tests in 1973 that gave the manufactures the hurry up and do something about heat dissipation and safety. Even the printed circuit boards had to be made from approved material. Remember seeing those BXL letters on the boards? Philips PCBs had those little red labels on them to indicate BEAB approval.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 10:37 pm
Anonymous
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A large LCD simply eats a lot for the illumination!
Secondly the panel drivers
Third is the DSP.

Only very small LCDs are less than a transistor 12" mono.

A Gamer's PC EXCLUDING screen can be more than a Valve Hybrid Colour set!

That's a laugh about the red bulbs in an Electric fire for the flame effect :)

Colour CRT there is a lot of loss in the Shadowmask. Trinitron etc more efficient. But later mono CRTS compare favourably with LCD for same area as most of the waste is the heater. The DSP in digital TV can easily take more power than all the electronics in even a colour analogue 100% solid state set, subtracting off the power used by CRT HT and heater.

 
Posted : 22/11/2014 1:11 pm
peterscott
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My old HMV901 with mains derived EHT draws 210 watts for a 12" screen.
The little Bush TV22 I'm currently playing with draws 170 watts for a 9" screen.
My Panasonic widescreen colour set draws 100 watts for a 28" CRT screen.
My Sony flat screen with Tivo box draws 50 watts with a blank screen and 80 watts with normal picture (32" screen)

Peter

www.nostalgiatech.co.uk

 
Posted : 22/11/2014 2:25 pm
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