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Forum 141

HDMI to Scart

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Panrock
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Not sure if this is in the right section - but here goes....

I know little about HDMI, how it works, what its connections are, etc. beyond knowing it's a digital interface that's got 'something to do with' HDTV. I have no experience of HDTV and don't have an HDTV setup here.

As you may have seen elsewhere, I shall soon be selling a reconditioned Retrovisor. These sets are now nearly twenty years old and most only accept an analogue signal modulated onto a UHF Carrier.

I want to make it as easy as possible for a non-technical viewer to use it with modern signal sources. Therefore I shall be selling it with a Maplin Scart-to-UHF modulator.

So far so good. But will the Scart plug into the majority of modern sources, which may include HDTV capability, or will an HDMI-to-Scart adapter of some sort be involved?

Yours in ignorance. :ccg Thanks for any advice.

Steve

 
Posted : 05/03/2014 11:28 am
crustytv
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As you surmised its not easy as SCART is an analogue, HDMI is a digital so they cannot be connected directly together. You will need a Scart to HDMI Upscaler http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scart-HDMI-1080 ... 22&sr=8-12

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Posted : 05/03/2014 11:34 am
Panrock
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Thanks Chris, but shouldn't it be the other way round? Wouldn't I need an HDMI-to-Scart downscaler to drive the Retrovisor?

Perhaps modern units still have Scarts anyway - so no problem?

 
Posted : 05/03/2014 11:42 am
crustytv
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Yes quite correct, my head was still thinking about when I had to connect a Scart device to my HD only Projector.

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Posted : 05/03/2014 12:47 pm
Marc
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Most HD Freeviews, freesats, Sky boxes and DVD's players still has either Scart or A/V on it as well as HDMI so I don't think I would worry about it too much.

Marc.

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Posted : 05/03/2014 12:50 pm
Anonymous
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Yes you do.
Only really Blu-ray is a problem. "Proper" Freeview HD & Freesat HD and all DVD players ought to have scart. (or composite on portable DVD).

The issue is ALSO HDCP. An HD satellite receiver or BD (Bluray) player will likely have HDCP. The cheaper HDMI to analogue downscalers (cost more than cheap HDTV!) have no HDCP and thus give no picture.

Also HDMI can carry sound.

Additionally HDMI can be progressive, 30fps, 60fps, 24fps or 48fps or even 75fps. An HDMI out on a PC or laptop or Mobile phone may not be compatible with a cheap HDMI to SCART converter.

What we need is a MkII Aurora with analogue composite, component, Y/C and RGB outputs supporting all existing output modes as well as 625 /25i and 525 30i with HDMI in as well as existing inputs. Unfortunately Daryl will find it expensive/hard to get a HDCP decryption key without cheating. So copy protected content won't work (anything from BD player and most Set Boxes). The HDMI to FPGA is one cheap chip.

I think it's not cost effective to add HDMI that supports HDCP properly. Some HDTV with SCART pass through for VHS are cheaper than such a box!

 
Posted : 05/03/2014 12:56 pm
Cathovisor
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As you may have seen elsewhere, I shall soon be selling a reconditioned Retrovisor. These sets are now nearly twenty years old and most only accept an analogue signal modulated onto a UHF Carrier.

The more technically savvy could use the now-redundant UHF modulator in their older VCR/DVD recorders, where fitted...? After all, it'll probably not be used for their telly any more...

 
Posted : 05/03/2014 1:00 pm
Panrock
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Okay - getting clearer about this. Will the Scart feed work equally well off the boxes to be found in any country that previously used 625-line PAL ? Maybe it doesn't even need to be PAL, so could be a SECAM country too? (Don't think NTSC was used at 625....)

Thanks,

Steve

 
Posted : 05/03/2014 5:10 pm
Doz
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Isn't the retrovisor colour?

 
Posted : 06/03/2014 8:27 am
Panrock
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Yes, Retrovisor is UHF PAL colour. My understanding was that Scart included R G and B baseband feeds, so whether the originating box came from a SECAM or PAL country would be immaterial. I haven't yet googled to check this for sure though.

Steve

 
Posted : 06/03/2014 1:13 pm
Cathovisor
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My understanding was that Scart included R G and B baseband feeds, so whether the originating box came from a SECAM or PAL country would be immaterial. I haven't yet googled to check this for sure though.

Steve

For the most part, yes; it is not unknown for some boxes to have "TV" and "VCR" sockets on the back, in which the VCR output only contains composite video feeds. The composite video feed is always present because it (usually) provides the sync feed to the receiver - syncs on green being pretty uncommon on boxes. There are a number of boxes that offer "enhanced" options, such as S-Video outputs but for the majority of Freeview boxes (cannot say for Sky boxes as I have little experience of them) RGB + CVBS is the default option on an output marked 'TV'.

 
Posted : 06/03/2014 1:32 pm
Anonymous
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The SCART based modulator only uses the audio and composite pins. It won't work with RGB at all.
SCART has been "adapted" so that as well as composite (which can be PAL, NTSC or SECAM depending on the setbox settings or VHS tape/machine) there can be Y/C too.

The Maplin (and almost every other modulator) will only modulate whatever video is on the composite pin. If it's SECAM or NTSC then you get SECAM that won't work with a real SECAM or NTSC TV as sound spacing and/or video polarity are wrong, but will work with a PAL-I TV that works with NTSC and SECAM on the SCART. Y/C, RGB and Component will not work with the Maplin and most other Modulators for PAL-I

Almost every set box and DVD player with SCART can output composite PAL. Every PAL VHS outputs PAL composite, none do RGB, though some can also do Y/C (All S-VHS) on SCART as well as S-Video Mini-DIN. Some game consoles only do RGB on SCART. The defunct pre-Sky BSB boxes only did RGB as the signal wasn't PAL.

In "progressive mode" (some DVD players) the SCART can't be used. Only Component (3 x RCA) or VGA connector will work. In theory of course like RCA socket Component SCART RGB could have be extended to do progressive and HDTV, but there was a deliberate decision not to.

Where a TV has more than one SCART often only one does RGB and it's often shared with Teletext! I've had several TVs where the RGB SCART had to be unplugged or the supplying box turned of to avoid both "mixed".

The Sky boxes only output RGB on TV connector and can turn it on/off in a menu. Composite is always present as it is the mixed sync on all RGB SCART. Two SCART pins I think are used for signalling WS (3 levels, off, 4:3 and WS) and RGB On/Off (2 levels). There is also a serial bus.

Not all SCART cables are wired for RGB either.

 
Posted : 06/03/2014 1:37 pm
Panrock
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Thank you for the very thorough replies. Clearly, the kit, as supplied, will only work correctly in System I countries: " the UK, Ireland, Southern Africa, Macau, Hong Kong and Falkland Islands" (Wikipedia). Even then, the picture still won't look quite right on some materials if the box is left set to 16:9 (Illustrated).

Steve

 
Posted : 08/03/2014 8:06 pm
Anonymous
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As your TV is PAL I and the audio and video in to the modulator is baseband, then any 50Hz 625 PAL "region" will "work" as say PAL I vs PAL B/G is irrelevant on composite out of a VHS, DVD, Satellite or DTT box.

PAL B, G, H, I, D and L are all the same for baseband video & audio as far as the Modulator input and Modulator RF out will be "PAL-I" compatible.

PAL M is 525 30fps (29.97) 60Hz subcarrier 3.575611MHz, so won't work.
PAL N is 625 25fps, but for a 6MHz channel and subcarrier is 3.582MHz I think, so won't work.
(even if the TV supported PAL M or N, there would be no sound!).
Via Maplin modulator both of these may "work" in black & white with sound. On a real PAL N or M set you get colour but no sound as the Modulator is 6MHz FM offset for Audio.
PAL 60 isn't a real standard, but some VHS machines will produce "real" PAL subcarrier when playing NTSC-M tapes. The video is still 525 30fps 60Hz though, so some PAL-I TVs shrink the height or flicker at bottom of frame.

As all PAL VHS use the same "colour under" subcarrier, PAL N VHS probably playback fine on any PAL-I or PAL B/G VHS and thus on PAL-I TV via RF. PAL M tapes may play back fine if the VHS and TV doesn't mind 30fps (most don't mind, though TV height on PAL I only TVs may be low). Most PAL VHS will actually play NTSC and some kinds SECAM* and you'll at least get B&W + sound. Many later TV models while not supporting SECAM and NTSC via RF will support it via built in composite SCART.

SECAM recorded on a PAL VHS will play back on SECAM TV via SCART/Composite (or on a TV with only PAL RF but NTSC & SECAM composite). But SECAM recorded on an SECAM only VHS will not play in colour on a PAL VHS to a real SECAM only TV or multistandard via Composite TV.

 
Posted : 08/03/2014 11:04 pm
Panrock
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Thanks for another extremely informative post Michael and setting me to rights. :aad

Steve

 
Posted : 08/03/2014 11:19 pm
Anonymous
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After I left BBC I worked in a place selling / installing / maintaining semi-pro video solutions among other stuff. The Barco probably was the ultimate multistandard set in 1979 (Belgium had 625 and two kinds of 819 popular at one stage, then 625 PAL and SECAM!).

NTSC 4.433 was common then too. PAL VTRs and VCRs simply playing NTSC. Sony had Monitors that supported it. Back then before SCART we had for composite video
Musa (mostly patch panels though)
BNC
PL529 / SO238 (Why???)
RCA "phono"
Only the MUSA was "really" 75 Ohms.
all in one audio & video, play and record EIAJ 8 connectors. 6 + 2 spaced pins.
Cameras for EIAJ VTRs all seemed to use same round multipin. Was seen later on some portable VHS recorders.
A 20 way version of EIAJ 8 would have been preferable to SCART/PERITEL connectors.

 
Posted : 08/03/2014 11:30 pm
Refugee
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All those connectors bring back a few memories for me having worked in a CCTV workshop in around about 1980 when they first introduced the SCART connector.
The SCART connectors were so plasticy compared to all those lovely old ones.
Out with the brake-out box.

 
Posted : 08/03/2014 11:49 pm
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