I've been considering getting a decent 78rpm record deck to digitalize some old disks that I have. The other day I visited a flea market and found some old shellac disks. At first I thought they were 78rpm but it turned out they were 80rpm and 90rpm Pathé disks. Now I need a player that can deal with those as well. Looking around, a lot of decks claim to be quarz controlled. I was wondering if it would be possible to get unusual speeds just by changing the quarz. Does anyone have any experience of this?
"The golden age is always yesterday", Asa Briggs.
My garard 401 will go to just over 80 rpm. I have not checked but my gl75 will also exceed 78 rpm.
I don't know of any belt or direct drive turn tables that have even 78 rpm.
I think it would be possible to fit a sleeve to the motor spindle of an idler drive turntable (a bit of heat shrink maybe) to increase the speed.
Rob T
I'm not sure how fast you can push something more conventional to, like the Goldring GL75. The beauty of the GL75 is that the speed is infinitely variable. But given that a lot of direct-drive 33/45 machines use a crystal for determining the speed, inserting a frequency doubler in the way of the original reference might prove 'interesting'...
A useful guide is here;
http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/history/p20_4_6.html
Don't forget that Pathé discs can use 'hill and dale' modulation, so you'll need to take the difference output of a stereo cartridge to play them.
Finally, you could just play at 45rpm and double it in software....
I don't know of any belt or direct drive turn tables that have even 78 rpm.
Dual CS5000, Technics SP10, Technics SL1200 to name three...
I did not know about the duel
I don't think either Technics have 78
Rob T
Finally, you could just play at 45rpm and double it in software....
That was what I was also going to suggest.. I use Steinberg "Clean V5" for my music cleaning and remastering.. It's old stuff by now, but does everything I need, and importantly, it has the option to vary the playback speed - Infinitely variable.. If you have a good sense of pitch, you can set the playback speed by ear, though that can be a little bit subjective!
Marion
My understanding was that 80RPM discs played from the inside groove to the outer edge, at which point the pickup arm fell off the record and smashed the needle to bits. This was no great concern at the time as there was a dish on the side of the turntable with a fresh supply of hawthorn needles.
Could be expensive if you're using diamond styluses though? 
I think it would be possible to fit a sleeve to the motor spindle of an idler drive turntable (a bit of heat shrink maybe) to increase the speed.
I'll check out some Garrard decks. I thought of getting a larger drive pulley for my Transcriptors HRT but unfortunately it would foul the speed change mechanism.
But given that a lot of direct-drive 33/45 machines use a crystal for determining the speed, inserting a frequency doubler in the way of the original reference might prove 'interesting'...
Maybe I'll try if I can get hold of a cheap direct drive deck.
Don't forget that Pathé discs can use 'hill and dale' modulation, so you'll need to take the difference output of a stereo cartridge to play them.
These ones do so the next problem will be to determine which stylus to use. One source I saw said 75 micron and another said 90 micron. Rek-o-Kut make a Pathé saphire which is 8 mil, so about 200 micron, but at $250 I'll pass on that for the moment.
Finally, you could just play at 45rpm and double it in software....
The problem with that is that if the cartridge is good down to 20Hz then at double speed you loose everything below 40Hz. Also the frequency of any hum gets doubled and harder to filter out. Maybe it would be alright in practice.
"The golden age is always yesterday", Asa Briggs.
Some early non-Pathe records were cut at 80RPM, with lateral modulation, before the 78RPM standard was adopted. I have never heard of 90RPM - was that the standard speed for Pathe?
I did not know about the duel
I don't think either Technics have 78
Rob T
They do; the SP10s I used to see at the BBC certainly did (along with a mod to the control unit for variable speed). Edit: Mk.II onwards. The SL1200 does in its Mk. 4 version.
There's also a DJ-type turntable that does 78 whose name escapes me at the moment.
Or, try this:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showth ... p?t=325483
As regards styli; do not pass go, do not collect £200 - go straight to Expert Stylus. What they don't know about styli for all manner of disk reproduction is frankly, not worth knowing and they are very sensibly priced. They will even sell you a brand new Shure M44 with appropriate styli for 78 &c. reproduction.
As regards the doubling business: frankly, there'll be nothing recorded at the frequency extremes you're mentioning and in fact, will make it easier to remove rumble from the deck.
Brian mentions 80rpm; very common indeed on Columbia discs, especially pre-merger laminates.
Some early non-Pathe records were cut at 80RPM, with lateral modulation, before the 78RPM standard was adopted. I have never heard of 90RPM - was that the standard speed for Pathe?
I think Pathé started off 90rpm, vertical modulation and inside to outside playback. Just to be completely different, the discs were all sorts of weird sizes as well, including some of 50cm! They eventually changed to 80rpm and outside to inside playback. I read somewhere that the inside to outside playback came about because of the cutting lathes which had no means of removing swarf. As the swarf tended to move towards the middle of the record, it was better to cut from the middle outwards. I think the Germans used a similar system towards the end of WW2. Records distributed to radio stations for broadcasting tended to be inside to outside although I can't remember why now.
The Pathé saphire could be reused. There was no need to have a new needle every time you played a record, so I'm surprised the system didn't catch on more widely. It was a lot easier than replacing needles.
"The golden age is always yesterday", Asa Briggs.
That looks like a very useful link, thanks.
As regards styli; do not pass go, do not collect £200 - go straight to Expert Stylus. What they don't know about styli for all manner of disk reproduction is frankly, not worth knowing and they are very sensibly priced. They will even sell you a brand new Shure M44 with appropriate styli for 78 &c. reproduction.
They don't seem to have a website although I did find an address for them. When I get that far (in 100 years) I'll see whether they have a Pathé saphire.
As regards the doubling business: frankly, there'll be nothing recorded at the frequency extremes you're mentioning and in fact, will make it easier to remove rumble from the deck.
That's what I though, but I have some other 78 transfers made by someone else and they have a peak around 33Hz. I've not worked out what it is but I assume it's not mains hum. One day I'll try to filter it out and see whether I notice any difference.
"The golden age is always yesterday", Asa Briggs.
They don't seem to have a website although I did find an address for them. When I get that far (in 100 years) I'll see whether they have a Pathé saphire.
They don't - they're very old school, and with that comes a refreshing attitude to customer service; keen to discuss your requirements, very knowledgeable, and a joy to deal with. I have a number of M44 "compromise" 78 styli from them, and they rebuilt one of my beloved Goldring G900IGC styli with one of their "Paratrace" diamonds. It sounds superb.
78 was often very much an approximation. I think even declared 78 could be anywhere from 65 to 90 especially with earlier discs.
Indeed - look in many older record catalogues (e.g. Columbia, HMV) and on older recordings you will frequently see markers that denote that the record was recorded at either less or more than 78 rpm.
Come to think of it, didn't the old wind-up gramophones, or some of them at least, have a little speed control lever on one corner, with the legend "<FAST--------------------------SLOW>" ? Or maybe t'other way round?
All things considered, a rather haphazard arrangement.. Add to that such variables as the effects of temperature on metal springs and lubricating grease, plus wear and tear (metal fatigue?) in the main spring and a non-linear wind-down of same, etc, etc, I could envisage a situation where you could play the same record ten times, and never hit the same speed twice.
Marion
Come to think of it, didn't the old wind-up gramophones, or some of them at least, have a little speed control lever on one corner, with the legend "<FAST--------------------------SLOW>" ? Or maybe t'other way round?
All things considered, a rather haphazard arrangement.. Add to that such variables as the effects of temperature on metal springs and lubricating grease, plus wear and tear (metal fatigue?) in the main spring and a non-linear wind-down of same, etc, etc, I could envisage a situation where you could play the same record ten times, and never hit the same speed twice.
Marion
That's what the governor was for! Yes, even electric machines bore an adjustable governor in nearly all cases that allowed a considerable variation of motor speed - this featured on Garrard machines right until they stopped manufacturing the big motors and replacing then with smaller idler-driven machines. IIRC the Garrard 201B5 has three governor adjuster arms poking out of it; one for each speed...
By contrast, my HMV 163 has a built-in speed indicator: when the machine is running at 78 rpm the number '78' appears in a window on the deck...
I have a number of Vitaphone discs from the 1920s which were the soundtracks for early cinema sound films. They are 16" in diameter and play at 33.333 RPM. They are also centre-start. Does anyone know the official reason that centre-start was used? At least the incoming projector's pickup would be in a very "safe" position with virtually no chance of it being knocked off the start. Also, as there was always an overlap of 14 frames at the end of the reel so if the edge of the disk has suffered damage, the chances are that the change-over could be made early to avoid any damage.
I have a number of Vitaphone discs from the 1920s which were the soundtracks for early cinema sound films. They are 16" in diameter and play at 33.333 RPM. They are also centre-start. Does anyone know the official reason that centre-start was used?
Quite simple - and you've virtually guessed the answer yourself.
Because shellac discs suffer edge damage like cracks and chips easily, the idea was that, if the disc and film were synchronised at the beginning of the reels it stayed in sync until the very end, as you said.
If the disc was played conventionally, all the skipping and hopping would occur at the start of the reel and sync would be lost for the rest of the reel.
Probably an over simplification as slight speed changes to one or the other could be used to maintain sync but if a particularly bad jump occurred at the start, it might take some time!
When all else fails, read the instructions
... it turned out they were 80rpm and 90rpm Pathé disks. Now I need a player that can deal with those as well ...
80RPM shouldn't be much of a problem but for 90RPM, have you considered temporarily mounting a suitable arm on to a clockwork turntable?
Those I tremember had quite a wide range, so 90RPM should be attainable and it will probably be a simple matter to adjust* the governor if it isn't!
* This could be as simple as disengaging the speed control lever so that the brake limit is no longer constrained by the end stop!
When all else fails, read the instructions
Probably an over simplification as slight speed changes to one or the other could be used to maintain sync but if a particularly bad jump occurred at the start, it might take some time!
I have a couple of books on early cinema projection and I have not seen a reference to varying the relative speeds of the projector and turntable - they seem to be geared solidly together with no facility for any relative change. Once a slop has occurred, it has to stay like that until the next reel (maximum 11 minutes). A very good reason to avoid edge damage!!
